Stuyvesant’s Perceptions on Course Exceptions

Talos has been loading for 30 minutes; an error message pops up for what seems like the 100th time. At this time of the year, Stuyvesant’s countless over-achieving students try to rack up as many Advanced Placement (AP) courses as they can take—including ones Talos deems them unprepared for. Course exceptions present these students a chance to appeal for a class they wish to take. However, course exceptions don’t come easily: both the assistant principal of the department in question and the student’s guidance counselor must confirm that the student is capable of taking the course. Unfortunately, not all programming requests are decided in the student’s favor, and many students are denied their requests.

It’s not a secret that AP courses aren’t easy; however, these potential difficulties do not faze AP-seeking students. There are many factors that impact a student’s decision to enroll in a higher-level class, including a desire for challenge, peer pressure, and college credits. Unsurprisingly, the primary motivating factor that drives Stuyvesant students to take an AP course is its appeal to colleges. Unlike regular courses in the subject, AP courses are supposed to be taught at the collegiate level, so students who excel at them are typically considered better candidates for college, and for Stuyvesant students, that is always a priority.

Additionally, some students believe that students who take AP courses are ultimately more engaged than those who take regular courses. Junior Cynthia Or shared that she has increased her historical and political knowledge by taking AP World History. However, AP courses not only come with greater privileges, but also with greater responsibility. Or expressed the difficulty of having to retain almost twice the knowledge required of regular Global History students. She described the countless nights and lunch periods she spent finishing her outlines. In contrast to the Global History Regents, which only tests material learned in sophomore year, the AP World History examination tests material learned in freshman year.

Sophomore Vivien Li considered both the pros and cons of an AP course when weighing her options. Like many other Stuyvesant students, she wanted to make the most of Stuyvesant’s opportunities and concluded that AP courses were worth the extra stress. “If I need to spend an entire year learning a course, then why not go all the way instead of halfway?” Li reasoned.

Regardless of the motives for taking a specific course, the results of student requests don’t always come back the way students want them to. For these students, the outcomes may seem unfair. A student who wished to remain anonymous shared, “I felt that it was unfair because I know people who are only [in the second term] taking Introduction to Computer Science, who were chosen instead of me, when I’ve dedicated a year into studying computer science in Annual [Computer Science].”

Opinions like these are not rare, but APs and guidance counselors do, in fact, put much time and thought into these requests. For instance, Assistant Principal of English Eric Grossman considers factors other than the average of the student. “There are all kinds of reasons why a kid with an average that’s a little below might be a fine candidate for an AP class. For instance, a kid who maybe had a tough transition to Stuy didn’t do so well first semester, but in the next few semesters has done better and better, then sure, that student ought to be fine, and shouldn’t be penalized for performance a couple of years ago. A kid with the same average, though, could’ve started out really strong, and done worse and worse; then, that student may be a less viable candidate,” Grossman explained.

Some assistant principals believe that students don’t always know what they’re getting themselves into when applying for certain AP courses. In fact, alumnus Timothy So (‘19) admitted, half-jokingly, “I took AP World because I was a confused freshman, and everyone was taking APs so I thought I needed to as well.” To make sure that students aren’t getting into situations they can’t handle, administrators going through course exceptions carefully evaluate whether or not the students are ready for the course. Computer Science Coordinator JonAlf Dyrland-Weaver, who makes the decisions for AP Computer Science requests, worries that students don’t always consider the contrast between the AP class and the Introduction to Computer Science class and end up struggling or disliking the course as a result. “If you’re just someone who happens to be good at computer science in the intro course, that doesn't mean that AP is the right course for you because the problems get harder. You might find that you start to struggle. If you're just taking this because you were good at CS and you didn't really care, then when you start to have problems that might be more difficult in AP, if it's not the sort of thing that you enjoy doing, then you're going to struggle and you're not going to [enjoy] doing it,” he cautioned.

While the approval of the APs is the main concern of students, guidance counselors also play an important role in the decision process. Some students have wondered why guidance counselors are part of the process. An anonymous senior said, “I honestly don’t think it’s absolutely necessary to receive permission from our guidance counselors because they don’t always know about the subject so there are things that might be misperceived.” Guidance counselor Paul Goldsman knows that guidance counselors have to consider aspects of students that the APs can’t. “We know the students in a very different light. In some cases, APs are approving or rejecting exceptions without ever meeting a child. And so especially with upperclassmen, we've worked with these kids for two to three years, so we know them really well. So I think it just makes [sense],” he explained. Goldsman elaborated that the guidance counselors are happy to help students who want to challenge themselves, but he also recognizes that they do have limits.

Unsurprisingly, some students directed complaints at Talos itself. A main concern was that having course selections online was a confusing process because directions were unclear. Junior Kaitlyn Lee expressed, “I would [rather] stick with an in-person process because, with the course selections, I had so many questions and a lot of people didn’t know how to answer them or what exactly to do. I had to keep going back and forth, asking my guidance counselors, so I feel like it would be easier if it was done in person.”

Dryland-Weaver acknowledges Talos’ flaws and encourages improvements. “We're early on in using Talos as a tool for this, so there are definitely improvements. One thing is just getting information out to students and faculty in a timely manner,” he said. Dyrland-Weaver agrees with Lee that Talos causes some confusion and sympathizes that it becomes annoying for teachers as well. “I've had a bunch of students who were concerned. They thought that they needed to have their information, their exception request in by May 1, and it wasn't until May 6, because I didn't have to give my results until May 1. So they were bugging me about it,” he continued.

Still, there are teachers and students who find the portal to be a huge improvement from the former way course selections were done. “I feel like [Talos is] more efficient than the in-person program changes because in person, you’re just waiting on line for hours, and you're just standing there, and there's no [certainty] that it’ll even get [approved],” junior Yi Ling Wu said. Goldsman comments on how the online process has also developed tremendously throughout time: “I’m very happy with Talos, especially based on where it started. I think that there are some improvements that need to be made. [...] I think especially where it’s come from, like I remember last year, it was such a mess, but it's improved tremendously and I think it's only going to get better. I'm excited to see how it continues to advance.”